What's the best brand and type of solder flux for residential plumbing?
I've been using stuff from the big-box stores but I think there are better brands and types out there. I'm a bit confused by the 95/5 and such terms for solder. I thought that meant 95% tin and 5% lead but I know that's not always true. I have a brand in-front of me that is 94% tin and 4% copper and 1% silver. I don't care what it costs but I'd like to only start using the best type and brand of solder and flux and make sure they are compatible to each other. I'm only doing standard residential plumbing at my house and would not do any other type of soldering. So, the joints are all going to be copper 1/2 and 3/4 and a few 1.5 as well for my boiler. My drain lines are all plastic so don't need to solder any of those. Thanks for your recommendations. My personal belief is that procedure is far more important than brands. I've been using Oatey brand Safe Flo solder and Oatey No. 95 Lead free tinning flux for at least the last ten years with no problems whatsoever. They say that flux eventually deteriorates but I haven't found that to be true. What works for me is to first clean the pipe end and the inside of the fitting with a combination of wire brush, fine sandpaper or Scotchbrite pad and then apply flux to only the pipe end. Insert the pipe end into the fitting and rotate to distribute the flux in the fitting. Heat the pipe and fitting until solder touched to the side opposite the heat source melts and it will instantly fill the entire void between the pipe and fitting. Allow to cool until solid and then use a damp rag to wipe the joint. I used this procedure (along with my ten-year-old flux and solder) under my house a few weeks ago and had perfect results the first time. I have a good book called Renovation by Michael Litchfield where he says: quality solder, such as a silver alloy, is easier to work with than standard 95/5 solder: youll have a wider working temperature range, better void filling, and fewer leaks. Quality solder can cost 50 percent more than standard types, but it's worth it. That sounds good but I don't know what a silver alloy solder is. He doesn't go into detail on brands or what percentage of silver versus other metals. I've used the Oatey stuff too as that's all I see at Home Depot. I wonder what the really good plumbers use? Plumbers all in NJ Use this. Otatey 5. Dont ust the white home store stuff. NG [IMG]http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0WTb_1wJDJN_iwAI8.jzbkF/SIG=12btnqtvt/EXP=1295218160/**http%3a//images.drillspot.com/pimages/2499/249909_300.jpg[/IMG] Also I thought all silver solder was 95/5. Not like the 60/40 we used to use. Lead!!!! We only use 95/5 by any brand. Solder will not flow unless fluxed. The flux is the most important. We did a test when self cleaning flux can out and we cleaned the pipe only. I have not cleaned a fitting in 10 plus years. Pipe only. Mike NJ Mike NJ Silvabrite (my personal favorite) is good solder: Silvabrite 100 Solder Products - silvaloy.com Mike NJ: You said: I have not cleaned a fitting in 10 plus years. If you haven't had any leaks so far, it's only because of your good luck. The primary function of sanding the copper pipe and brushing out the fitting is to remove any copper oxide (the brown stuff that gradually forms on bright orange copper) from both surfaces the solder needs to stick to. The primary function of flux is to act as a physical barrier between the oxygen in the air and the bare copper metal. Since molten solder will not stick to copper oxide, it's EVERY BIT as important to brush out the fitting as it is to sand down the pipe end. Copper oxide on either one of those surfaces is going to prevent the solder from bonding to that surface. Soldering fluxes have a chemical called zinc chloride in them. As you heat the joint up to soldering temperatures, this zinc chloride becomes acidic and dissolves copper oxide more aggressively than it does the base copper metal. It's probably the zinc chloride in the flux that's been saving you from getting leaks. Here, try this: Heat up a copper elbow with your torch and let it cool down to ensure you have a thick layer of copper oxide all over that elbow. Now, brush out only ONE socket of that elbow, and try to solder short pieces of copper pipe into both sockets of the elbow. I can just about guarantee you won't get a proper solder joint on the socket that wasn't brushed out. FromHollywood: I agree with the post that says proper procedure is more important than who's products you use. You should be aware that copper rusts just like iron or steel. It's just that the oxide film that copper forms both sticks tenaciously to the copper and is highly impermeable to both air and water, unlike iron rust on both counts. It's that oxide film that turns the copper from an orange colour to a medium brown over the course of several years. At room temperatures, that reaction occurs very slowly, but it happens very quickly at soldering temperatures. The oxide film that forms over copper is highly impermeable to both air and water. Consequently, as that film grows in thickness it better and better protects the copper metal from further rusting. This is why it's not much more difficult to sand the oxide film off of a 50 year old piece of copper pipe as it does a 10 year old piece of copper pipe; the oxide film thickness isn't much thicker on the 50 year old pipe than the 10 year old pipe. And, it's this protective oxide film that forms over copper (and brass and stainless steel and aluminum and nickle and chromium) that prevents these metals from continuing to corrode like iron or steel do. And, that protective oxide film is the reason why the copper piping installed in a farm house will typically still be in reusable condition 80 years later when they bulldoze that house to build a new shopping center. The purpose in sanding the pipe and brushing out the socket is to remove that oxide film because molten flux won't bond to copper oxide. But, the instant you stop brushing or sanding, that oxide film is starting to form again. So, it's best to flux both the pipe and the socket as soon as possible after brushing or sanding. Even if you don't assemble your piping right away, the flux on the newly exposed bare metal will prevent oxygen from the air from coming into contact with the bare copper and that will prevent any oxide film from forming on it until you're ready to solder. Metals are the most opaque materials known to man. You can stop more light with gold leaf or aluminum foil than you can with any other material of equal thickness. The low-e coating on low-e window glass consists of a layer of silver atoms only about 70 atoms thick. That low-e coating is darn near invisible on window glass; you have to have good eyes and know what to look for to tell if that layer of silver atoms is there or not. So, even a coating of metal 70 atoms thick is almost perfectly transparent. So, never presume that if the pipe or fitting is still orange instead of brown you don't really need to brush or sand. By the time you can actually see the brownish discolouration caused by rusting, the oxide layer is already very thick. It's capillary pressure that both holds the molten flux in the joint and draws the molten solder into the joint. Consequently, if you're having difficulty soldering a joint, it's never a bad idea to apply more flux to the hot piping so that the molten flux flows into the joint to keep it full of hot flux. No more flux will flow into the joint than is necessary to keep it full of flux. Once the solder starts to melt, there will be greater affinity between the bare copper and the molten solder (cuz they're both metals) than between bare copper and molten flux, so the capillary pressure drawing the molten solder into the joint will be stronger than the capillary pressure keeping the molten flux in the joint. A common cause of leaking joints is that it doesn't dawn on people that the air pressure inside the pipe will increase when the pipe is heated. If you don't provide a path for the expanding air to escape, then the air pressure inside the pipe will push the flux out of the joint, and that's likely to result in a leaking joint. So, besides all the other common causes of leaking joints, always provide a path for air expansion to occur OTHER than through the joint you're trying to solder. That way, the capillary pressure drawing the molten solder into the joint doesn't have to overcome any internal pressure trying to push that molten solder out of the joint. You should be aware that there are different kinds of copper pipe; Type K, L and M. Type M is the thinnest wall copper pipe you can get in 1/2 and 3/4 inch size, and it's approved for residential use. Type M has red printing on it so that the plumbing inspector can tell what kind of pipe it is without measuring it's wall thickness. Type L is thicker wall and is required in commercial construction, and has blue printing on it. Type K is the thickest wall copper pipe, and is used for special applications, such as underground lawn sprinkler systems and for copper pipe carrying compressed air. Type K has green printing on it. Even though Type M is the cheapest, you want to use a thicker wall copper pipe in certain applications. For example, the short stub of pipe that comes out of the bathroom wall that you mount your bathtub spout onto. Slip On bathtub spouts will have a set screw which pinches the OD of that short piece of copper pipe, and can damage that pipe. So, you'd do well to buy a foot or two of Type L (or even K) copper pipe from any plumbing company to use for applications like that where it'd be good to have a stronger pipe. Also, a word on two special cases of soldering is in order: 1. Soldering ball valves: Some supposed experts will tell people to take ball valves apart to remove the ball and seals before soldering. This is terrible advice. You're more likely to create a leak by taking the ball valve apart (if you even can) and putting it back together than you are in soldering it in as is. What's important is that you brush out both ends of the ball valve (and it's a good idea to place a #12 (1/2 inch OD) flat washer on the end of the brush to prevent damage to the teflon seals inside the ball valve), flux right away and ensure that the ball valve is in the OPEN position before applying heat. If you solder the valve in the closed position, the increase in air pressure inside the ball can damage the teflon seals (which are much softer and more easily deformed at elevated temperatures). I also like to remove the handles from ball valves before soldering them just to prevent accidentally melting the plastic on the handles. 2. Connecting copper pipe with couplings: There are three kinds of copper couplings used to connect copper pipes. One kind has a rolled stop which goes all around the circumference of the coupling in the middle of it's length. That rolled stop prevents the end of the pipe from going into the coupling any deeper than half the length of the coupling, and that helps ensure that the pipe ends meet at the middle of the coupling's length rather than close to either end of the coupling. Other couplings (called slip couplings) have no stop at all, and still other couplings have something called a dimple stop where the coupling has been punched half way along it's length to create a bump on the ID of the coupling. Unfortunately, some experts are telling newbies that want to use dimple stop couplings as slip couplings to file down the bump on the inside of the coupling with a round or half round file. That's terrible advice because often the bump on the inside of the coupling is darn near as tall as the wall thickness of the coupling. So, filing off the bump will leave the coupling with little to no wall thickness where the dimple is, and that dimple will typically be located right between the ends of the pipe inside the coupling. So, filing off that bump on the ID of the coupling could result in you soldering in a coupling with a hole in it. If you want to use a dimple stop coupling as a slip coupling, use a socket a little smaller in diameter than the coupling as an anvil to hammer the dimple out of the coupling. That way you don't reduce the wall thickness of he coupling at the dimple. All solder must be NO lead, for plumbing. the 5 in 95/5 is other alloys, but no lead. Thourough cleaning and good flux are keys. Everyone finds a brand of solder that seems to work best for them. Realize that the lead free solders have a melting point, or working temp, about 80 to 100 degrees higher than the old 50/50 SN/PB. So burning away the flux is more of a potential problem. The secret is to have an adequate size torch and flame for the job ( I prefer Mapp these days). Heat the joint quickly and be done. If you keep the flame on a joint for two or three minutes trying to get it hot, its too late. The flux will be damaged, and possibly the valve if that is the fitting. Nestor, Thanks for the very helpful and informative response. I'm sure your words will help a lot of people understand flux and solder much better. What brand of flux and solder do you use? What confuses me is the fact that fluxes and solder come in so many different kinds and apparently they have to be compatible to each other. I'm looking right now at Rectorseal's C-Flux label and it says it can be used with 95/5, 60/40, 50/50 or 40/60 solder. The solder I have doesn't say it's any of those combinations. I think the ratios are comparing one type of metal to another but there seem to be various metals used in solder so how does one know which metal the ratio is referring to? I guess lead is no longer one of those metals? The word tinning confuses me also. Some fluxes seem to say they do that and others don't seem to mention it. I don't know if that's important or not. I just bought Rectorseal Nokorode Regular Paste Flux as it says it is for use on all solder alloys including 95/5. So, from that comment, it seems like it is compatible with more solders than their C-Flux which says it's for use on only those various ratios I mentioned above. But, for all I know, all flux is basically the same. Originally Posted by fromhollywood What confuses me is the fact that fluxes and solder come in so many different kinds and apparently they have to be compatible to each other. There are lots of different kinds of solders and fluxes, but what's important when it comes to compatability is what materials the solder and flux are meant to be used with. For example, there are solders and fluxes made to be used to solder stainless steel sheet metal joints. There are solders and fluxes made for aluminum. There are solders and fluxes meant to be used to dip solder printed circuit boards. There are solders and fluxes meant to be used to repair platinum and gold jewellry. And there are solder and fluxes meant to be used in manufacturing a wide variety of metal objects. And so on. Obviously not all solders are going to be compatible with all fluxes. However, any solder meant for soldering copper piping will be compatable with any flux meant for soldering copper piping. Similarily, and solder meant for soldering galvanized sheet metal will be compatible with any flux meant to be used for soldering galvanized sheet metal. Etc. Otherwise everyone would be confused. Whatever literature you read about solders and fluxes was undoubtedly referring to a much broader range of solders and the appropriate flux to use with them rather than just those made specifically for soldering copper plumbing pipes. You interpreted their warning that not all solders and fluxes are compatable to mean that not all plumbing solders and plumbing fluxes are compatable, and that's what got you confused and concerned about compatability. Thus, it was this misunderstanding that created the confusion. For example, in the PDF cited below, it warns against using 95/5 lead free plumbing solder to solder galvanized sheet metal. That's because the 5% antimony in 95/5 solder will react with the zinc on the galvanized metal to form a brittle compound which will render that solder joint weaker than if an antimony-free solder had been used. But, solder meant for soldering copper piping comes in a solid 1/8 inch thick wire format, and solder made for sheet metal work comes in bars. So, as long as you don't adhere to the What the he11, let's try it and see what happens! school of DIY Home Repair and Maintenance, you should never have to be concerned with incompatibility issues when it comes to solder and soldering flux. As long as both were made for soldering the same material, then compatability won't be an issue. Here's a brochure from Canada Metal (who make solders and fluxes for a wide variety of different industries. That brochure explain what kinds of solders and fluxes are used in different industries and which solders or fluxes should and shouldn't be used in specific situations or applications: http://www.canadametal.com/pdf/solder_tech.pdf I use Oatey Safe Flo Silver Lead Free Solder from Home Depot: only because it says lead free on it. I don't know what's in it, and I don't really care. It's lead free and I find it easy to use, and that's really all that matters to me. I use Canada Metal Paste Flux, which I find is easy to spread smoothly. I can't say I like the Oatey flux Home Depot sells though. I found it to be too stiff or thick (or dried out?) to spread eaily on the pipe and fitting. But, if you want to buy any good solder or flux, just go to any plumbing wholesaler in your area and ask what the plumbers in your area like most and tend to stick with. If you pay cash, they'll probably sell you some under Miscellaneous Sales. Tell them you're just starting to solder and want to buy a good solder and flux to make the learning process as quick and painless as possible. Originally Posted by fromhollywood I'm looking right now at Rectorseal's C-Flux label and it says it can be used with 95/5, 60/40, 50/50 or 40/60 solder. The solder I have doesn't say it's any of those combinations. I think the ratios are comparing one type of metal to another but there seem to be various metals used in solder so how does one know which metal the ratio is referring to? Whenever you see a number designation on solder, like 60/40, 50/50, 40/60, 95/5 or whatever, the first number ALWAYS refers to the % by weight of TIN in the solder. For most solders, the second number will be the % by weight of lead. So, 60/40 solder would be 60% tin and 40% lead, 50/50 would be 50% tin and 50 percent lead, 40/60 solder will be 40% tin and 60% lead, and you shouldn't use any of these kinds of solder for water supply piping cuz they all contain lead. 95/5 solder would be 95% tin and 5% antimony, which is what is typically used for soldering copper water supply piping. The PDF cited above has a chart that shows the compositions of various solders. Just look up the percentage of tin on the chart and it'll tell you what the other metal is. All solders contain trace amounts of copper, iron, zinc and aluminum, but it's customary to just list the two primary constituent metals the solder. Originally Posted by fromhollywood I guess lead is no longer one of those metals? No, it still is. Canada Metal makes lots and lots of solder with lead in it for soldering galvanized metal, for soldering electronic connections and for other applications where lead has not been banned in the kind of solder used. My understanding is that lead is only banned in solder intended for copper water SUPPLY piping. You can apparantly still use 50/50 solder on copper water DRAIN piping. And, of course, the solder used for electronics still contains lead, as does the solder used in most other industries where solder (of one form or another) is used. Originally Posted by fromhollywood The word tinning confuses me also. Some fluxes seem to say they do that and others don't seem to mention it. I don't know if that's important or not. Tinning simply means to melt a bit of solder onto the tip of your soldering iron before you apply it to the surface you want to heat. Because that solder will be a liquid, tinning the soldering iron will result in a much larger contact area between the soldering iron and the piece to be heated, resulting in faster heating. I really don't know what a tinning flux would do that a non-tinning one wouldn't but tinning is something that's only done when soldering electronic components individually, or soldering sheet metals. You don't tin anything when you solder copper piping, and so it's not something that would affect your plumbing work. But, that said, what I DO LIKE TO DO when soldering copper piping is melt a bit of solder into the joint on the heated side before moving the solder to the opposite side of the joint. That way, the solder on the hot side ensures excellent heat transfer between the pipe and fitting so that both will be at the same temperature during the soldering process. Since the method and reason for doing that is the same as for tinning soldering IRONS, that might be an example of tinning when soldering copper pipe. But, the word tinning really means to melt some solder onto the tip of the soldering iron or soldering gun or soldering pencil so that you get more rapid heat transfer to the piece you want to heat. Using that word in the context of plumbing is just going to make people wonder what you mean. Originally Posted by fromhollywood I just bought Rectorseal Nokorode Regular Paste Flux as it says it is for use on all solder alloys including 95/5. So, from that comment, it seems like it is compatible with more solders than their C-Flux which says it's for use on only those various ratios I mentioned above. But, for all I know, all flux is basically the same. I refer to the first two paragraphs of my post. As long as both fluxes were meant for soldering copper pipe, they'll be compatable with any solder intended to be used for copper pipe. The first flux said that it was compatable with 40/60 solder, which is where you make wiped joints on LEAD pipes. Actually, I expect both fluxes are equally compatable with all plumbing solders. Where I live, I can't remember any place selling any plumbing solder other than 50/50 to be used for all plumbing work until the early 1980's when lead was banned for water supply piping joints. Since then, the only other solder you could buy was 95/5. So, if one flux says it can be used on all solders, and the other says it can be used for 60/40, 50/50, 40/60 and 95/5, then I can't imagine where you'd find a PLUMBING application where one solder would work and the other wouldn't. I suppose you're right in saying that the latter is compatable with a wider range of solders than the first, but it's a mute point because both appear to be compatable with all plumbing solders, and you're only soldering copper water supply pipes, in which case the solder you'll be using will be 95/5 anyhow. In summary, I think you're under the misconception that some solder meant for soldering copper pipe is incompatible with some flux meant for soldering copper pipe, and that's simply not true. Every plumber out there will use a different solder and flux combination. If a solder or flux wasn't compatible with another flux or solder, the manufacturer would cover his legal A$$ by proclaiming in big lettering on his product Do not use with Rectorseal Nokorode Regular Paste Flux or Do not use with Rectorseal's C-Flux for fear of a class action law suit from millions of newbies who'd all used their solder with Nokorode or C-Flux for lack of any warning not to. So, if you don't see any such warnings on the solder or flux you buy, you can be confident it's compatible with every other product out there meant for soldering copper pipe. There are incompatability issues using solders meant for one kind of industry with fluxes meant for another and vice versa. But, people that solder sheet metal only uses fluxes and solders meant for sheet metal, people that solder copper pipe only use solders and fluxes meant for copper pipe, and so on. And none of them concern themselves with compatability issues because those don't occur within one industry or trade. It's only when you use solders and fluxes meant for different purposes that you can run into trouble. I'm hoping this clears up any confusion. PS: I just found out that 95/5 can have either 5 percent antimony in it, or 5 percent silver or 5% combination of silver and copper in it, like 4.0 % silver, 1.0 percent copper or even 5% combination of silver, zinc and copper, like 3.5% silver, 1 percent zinc and 0.5 percent copper. And, there are many other compositions for both leaded and non-leaded solder. So, the first number refers to the tin content, the second number refers to the lead or non-tin content. (which makes that second number kinda redundant I suppose) After all, any solder that's 95% tin has to be 5% non-tin no matter which way you slice it. Solder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I really don't know what a tinning flux would do that a non-tinning one wouldn't..... Here's what the Oatey web site says for tinning flux.... Formulated with the same high quality as No. 5. However, patented Oatey silver solder powder is added to pre-tin the copper pipe. Flux can never burn out. 100% lead free. Excellent for large diameter copper. Does not turn copper green. I used this stuff while putting new supply lines to my bathroom sink and it worked great. That was my first time sweating joints and not a leak yet. Baldwin: Thanks for the info. So a tinning flux has tiny solid particles of solder inside it. But, I don't understand why that would be beneficial. There couldn't be enough solder powder inside the flux to solder the joint, the best you could hope for is a coating of solder over the pipe OD and fitting ID. But, that tinning action wouldn't happen until the solder particles melted, and at that temperature, the solder wire would be ready to melt as well. However, capillary pressure is dependant on the surface tension between the fluid being drawn into the capillary and the walls of the capillary tube. It's just a guess, but my guess would be that the thinking here is to coat the ID of the fitting and OD of the pipe with molten solder so that there's a higher capillary pressure drawing the wire solder into the joint. After all, not only are both the fluid and walls made out of metal, they're the SAME metal, and so the surface tension between them would be lowest, and therefore the capillary pressure would be the highest. I'd file this one under Might Help. I've been soldering for well over 20 years now, and my last leaking solder joint was over 15 years ago. I use Canada Metal Paste Flux or it's competitor's equivalent during all of that time, and the containers never said anything about tinning, so I'm presuming that none of them were tinning fluxes. I can see how theoretically a tinning flux would result in higher capillary pressure to draw the molten solder into the joint. But, the fact that millions of plumber using non-tinning fluxes have equally good results with those that use this Oatey tinning flux tells me that there's already sufficient capillary pressure to draw the molten solder into the joint even without using a tinning flux. I think if it made a perceptable difference, then plumbers would all recommend that newbies use a tinning flux. I've got a fair bit of experience in plumbing, and didn't know what a tinning flux was until today. Well, I can't tell you if it helps or not. All I can say is I used it on my one and only soldering job and no leaks. Quick story: about 30 years ago I helped my neighbor carry in a new water heater then hung around and watched him hook it up. He had huge gobs of solder on that pipe and it still leaked. Called his brother-in-law over......where's your flux? What's flux? Doh! We stood with our mouths open as the solder was just sucked right in, very cool the first time you see it. Oatey has a good video for someone who hasn't done it before. Naturally, you don't have to use their products but I think it does cover the basics: http://www.oatey.com/apps/catalog/in...solder_7mb.wmv A little practice in the garage beforehand and I found it quite easy. Unfortunately, being divorced, I had no one to brag to...the dog couldn't care less. One more thought: their web site says Flux can never burn out. Is this from the powdered solder in the joint or what? No idea here. Flux can never burn out. Is this from the powdered solder in the joint or what? That would be my thought. I only use propane to solder with. I've heard that you can overheat joints using MAPP gas, but I don't know how it's possible to burn the flux out of the joint if there's no oxygen to speak of inside there. Any burning would have to occur slowly from both ends where the flux is exposed to air. The only other thing I could think of is if you get the flux hot enough, it could simply boil away, leaving behind a tar-like residue and allowing air into the joint. I'm thinking that before either of those things happen, the powdered solder inside the flux would melt and coat the bare copper surfaces inside the joint. Then, that very thin coating of solder over the bare copper would protect it from exposure to the oxygen in the air. However, it would seem to me that tin would also oxidize upon exposure to air at soldering temperatures, and I don't know that molten solder would stick to tin oxide any better than it sticks to copper oxide. I did find another possible reason for companies making and people using a tinning flux. On this web page: Tinning Flux vs. Standard Paste Flux Ssomeone who uses Oatey #95 tinning flux claims that as the joint comes up to soldering temperature, the solder in the flux will flash silver as the solder particles in the flux melt, indicating that the joint is ready to solder. Waiting for the joint to get hot enough to solder is always somewhat of an anxious experience, and having some sort of visual indication that you're at or near that temperature is a great idea in my books. So, that alone might be a reason enough to use a tinning flux instead on an ordinary flux. Maybe look for a 1-800 customer service number, and phone Oatey to find out exactly what's meant by Flux can never burn out. I've never burned the flux out of a joint, but I use propane instead of MAPP gas and I apply more flux periodically if the joint is taking a long time to solder. I now understand about the compatibility of flux and solder and that if both products are made to be used for copper plumbing pipe that they both will be ok together, even if they are from different manufacturers. Thanks for the helpful explanation. Part of what is still confusing is that there are so many different types of flux for copper plumbing. When I look at the Rectorseal website, they list 8 different fluxes, all apparently for copper plumbing. Rector Seal - The Name You've Trusted for Years Some are for use in hot weather, some in cold weather, some water washable, some are gels, some are pre-tinning, some apparently are not pre-tinning, etc. etc. Just looking through this list at Rectorseal, I really couldn't tell which I should get for basic copper residential plumbing. So, I'd probably get the one that says regular and cross my fingers. Nestor: when you say you apply more flux periodically, what do you mean? Once the joint is put together and you're applying the torch, how would you apply more flux? I suppose you mean you take the joint apart and start over again? FromHollywood: Well, I agree that it looks like they're offering you 8 different versions of the same thing. The hot and cold weater fluxes are for extreme conditions, such as working in a boiler room where it's 120 deg. F from all of the radiant heat of the boilers and piping. The Aqua-flux is water washable so that any flux on the inside of the piping can be removed by simply flushing out the water piping before putting it into service. The C-flux can only be used with plumbing solders wherea their Regular Paste Flux can be used with any solder (for soldering galvanized metal, aluminum, stainless steel, etc.) I really don't know what the liquid flux would be used for. I expect Rector Seal is aware that there's a lot of overlap between the various kinds of plumbing fluxes they sell, but as long as each flux continues to sell well, Rector Seal will continue producing it. That's because if they stopped making any of these fluxes, their customers are as likely to switch to someone else's flux than to switch to a different Rector Seal product. (Truth be known, that's probably the biggest reason why Rector Seal continues making 8 different fluxes.) So far as I know, Oatey only makes 2 plumbing fluxes (#5 and #95) and Canada Metal only makes one plumbing flux. I'd say go with Rector Seal's Regular Paste Flux or their 95/5 pretinning flux. And, buy the smallest quantity you can so you can try someone else's flux in future to see if you like it better or not. You're new to soldering, and so you probably won't notice much difference between one flux and another. But it's like this: Anyone who uses a hammer once every 10 or 20 years to put up a picture wouldn't be able to tell the difference between one hammer and another. But, every roofing contractor that puts in hundreds of shingling nails every day (I know they all use pneumatic equipment now) will be able to tell the very slight difference in balance and feel between different high quality hammers. To you, every flux will work, and that's all you care about. But, to a plumber who spends half his day soldering and unsoldering, then subtle differences between the fluxes that you would never notice make a big difference to him; to the point where he'll drive across town to get one flux rather than use something else. People like what they get used to, and so if people are used to a particular flux, then they'll stick with it. But it's the solder that determines the strength of the joint, and so EVERY flux will produce an equally strong solder joint using 95/5 solder. It's just that they'll all have different characteristics about them that you might dislike or prefer. When I say that I apply more flux, I don't take the joint apart to do that. I simply pick up a little flux with my flux brush and paint it over the joint where the pipe goes into the fitting. The pipe and fitting will be hot enough to melt the flux, and that liquified flux will be drawn into the joint by capillary pressure. And, since capillary pressure will drop to zero once the joint is full of flux, I can be confident that the joint will only wick in as much flux as it needs to stay full; anything else will simply drip off the piping. That way, if the joint is taking a long time to solder, I can be sure that the long heating time isn't burning or boiling the flux out of the joint, and that no oxidation of the bare copper is taking or has taken place. Thus, by adding flux to the joint periodically to ensure that the joint is full of flux, you don't start feeling anxious if the joint takes a long time to solder. As long as the joint is full of flux, no oxidation of the copper will occur, and there's no increase in the liklihood that the joint will leak. Hope this helps. i agree with nestor with just about everything. although, i think with fiux, just because it's ok for copper does not mean it's ok for copper used for drinking water. i think the flux needs to be non toxic and water soluble so that it is not dangerous in the water system and can be flushed. i am currently re-piping my entire house and have had plenty of opportunity to try both the oatey tinning flux and the nokorode aqua-flux paste. the oatey flux seems to rinse out easier. the nokorode aqua-flux has an oily petroleum-ish smell and when i flush it with water, it seems to still have some residue. the instruction for the aqua-flux says to really flush it. at least it's non-toxic so maybe that's ok. i do think the aqua-flux is less scorch resistant. i took a little too long to heat one of the fittings and the aqua-flux didn't seem to scorch as easily as the oatey. one thing about using too much flux and not wiping the excess outside the joint is it can scorch easier and coats the copper with this black yucky soot. also, i've had the extra flux outside the joint actually causes some of the solder flow where the excess solder is as well. this creates an uglier looking joint. while i'm certain that the joint is probably fine but it just doesn't look as professional of a job. i also found that leaving the flux on too long causes the flux to react with the copper. there's usually a very small amount of copper dust after you sand the copper to remove the oxidation. i've seen that dust turn green. this is why i don't think you should wait very long after you have a joint ready to be soldered. a word about mapp gas vs. propane. the torch is just as important. the fast heating of copper should reduce the oxidation rate. if you sit there and slowly heat the copper pipe by turning down the flame and heating the fitting slowly, the flux evaporates, and the heat begins to travel away from the fitting. both of these conditions are problematic. it causes the solder to travel towards the heat and if the heat is moving away from the fitting, the solder will not necessarily behave as expected. one last thing to also note is to make sure you wipe off excess flux on the outside of the soldered joint with a damp cloth (not wet, just damp). this is very important. the acidity in the flux is corrosive and on the inside will flush out with water. however, on the outside of the pipe, it's up to you to do this. i've read many instructions and this is casually mentioned but never really emphasized. it's probably not the end of the world because there's probably not enough flux to eat the copper through (at least not in the first 20 years). however, to be safe, just do it. it's easy and is an insurance policy which is totally worth it. You said: I have not cleaned a fitting in 10 plus years. Thats right. When self cleaning flux came out in the 80's we stopped cleaning fittings and only cleaned the pipe end. I have been doing it for 20 plus years.acually. As long as the fitting is new. Old fittings yes I clean. Mike NJ
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